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I fully realize that those conservatives who do venture into my blog here (without wearing a condom) presume I am a raging liberal given my overall theme is to rid the nation of the guy in the Oval Office (when he’s not at Mar-A-Lago on weekends, and the world is placed on hold). But I have ventured to proclaim my historical affirmation of being an “old school” (“BT”.. before Trump) liberal conservative. In support of that view I made an early post about actually agreeing with something Trump has said.. that was in regards to his reaction to the Vegas shooting as not being a gun problem but rather a mental health problem (although I realize him saying that was In no way some commitment to addressing mental health issues in this country but rather one of his deflections away from any inkling of gun control).
Well, folks, lightening can indeed strike twice in the same spot. I actually agree with his “Merry Christmas” proclamation… and I am nowhere near being an evangelical!
I dislike this political correctness run amok as much as the next person. But you see, that’s a cultural preference because I was never raised on it. Of course mom and dad raised me to tolerate and appreciate racial and cultural differences. But… this hair-trigger knee jerk going way beyond just offensive language.. like changing sports team icons, a movement to change the designation of computer hard drives from “master” and “slave” (for the obvious racial reason), or a town council banning the use of “brainstorming” in favor of “thought showers” to not offend those people with epilepsy. It’s far more than nuts.
There’s a part of my “conservative-ness” that does hold on to some traditional values. While I am a proponent of the separation of church and state.. as best as possible/practical within a democracy… I don’t necessarily favor a complete sanitizing of our religious founding, and I am willing to compromise in the views. For example, I believe in that our Founding Fathers did in fact hold not only to the philosophies of the political theorists of the day, but were also God-fearing men in having an understanding of the Bible. Both of these elements ended up having a strong influence in not only the Declaration but also the later Constitution. Later in our history when our money declared our collective national recognition of Christian influence with “In God We Trust” and subsequently our “Pledge of Allegiance”, it all makes perfect sense to me.
Some readers of this might ask of me, “But wait, sir, you being a proponent of the separation of church and state yet you have no objection to the current “God” reference symbols.. you sound awfully like some damned hypocrite!” Well, overlooking the fact that humans by nature are hypocritical (and I am still a human), I do have what I think is sound reasoning for my view (we all have sound reasons for our views… just many don’t sound like they make any sense). Being a student of history (way more than the average person who has no care for it) I consider our nation’s early founding as having a deep Christian morality in trying to advance the equality of man (well, white man at the start) and including those concepts into our laws… and Bill of Rights. These guys also had a rather unique idea that while they cherished their Christian roots, that they also saw ahead of their time the political necessity of the separation of church and state in order for the nation to hold all men equal… which actually meant an intentional political tolerance of diverse cultures and religious beliefs.
I really have no issue whatsoever in not having religious holiday themes and decorations on the grounds of public buildings. If someone wants to decorate their office cube that’s one thing. But more grand displays like nativity scenes seem out of place to me in or around public buildings. For one thing, someone is being paid public tax dollars to put that stuff up and take it down… and if there’s lights involved, well, I’m helping to pay that bill as well. I’d rather my public figures get paid for doing their jobs (or being available to serve me at the counter when I get there and not having to wait while they dress up Baby Jesus out on the front lawn). Yeah… government buildings should be religiously and culturally neutral. Obviously those older buildings with Doric or Corinthian pillared architecture containing the carvings of quotations and speeches around their facades that contain references to God, and the occasional “federal” (vs. Confederate) monument, are there to stay.. but those are likely just famous political/patriotic quotes anyway.
But even beyond political correctness… there should be no objection if the vast majority of Christians who inhabit this country wishing to use “Merry Christmas”. If I see you on the street and say “Merry Christmas” in passing, and you are a Muslim or Jewish.. then simply retort back, “Happy Holidays” and I would think no different of you one way or the other.
“…one nation, under God, indivisible…”
***
Most of the contributing fathers were deist….Paine, Jefferson, Franklin and Adams for sure….there were religious sorts among the others but a yes man is not a founder in my book….I have no problem with “Merry Christmas” until I am told that it is the only greeting then I will rebel….that is basically what most of these…. Tea Party types want …if so then they will not get it from me.
As you said for me one greeting is as good as another…..interesting that a season of peace and joy can turn ugly and hateful…..chuq
@chuq
I wrote a post on the deism of the Founders about nine years ago.
=> https://citizentom.com/2008/09/10/deism-and-the-founding-fathers/
Paine was dead serious about his deism. The others you mentioned struggled with it. However, even though these guys played important roles in the founding of the country, most of the founders were Christians.
What is the most important proof? What we believe makes a difference in our behavior. Christian morality made the founding of America as a constitutional republic possible. Even Thomas Paine quoted the Bible in “Commonsense”.
@Doug
Interesting post.
“These guys also had a rather unique idea that while they cherished their Christian roots, that they also saw ahead of their time the political necessity of the separation of church and state in order for the nation to hold all men equal… which actually meant an intentional political tolerance of diverse cultures and religious beliefs.”
The founders gave Congress the power to regulate immigration. I seriously doubt that the founders expected Congress to permit large numbers of non-Christians to immigrate to America. Note also that the First Amendment did not originally apply to state governments. However, the Christian diversity of the country and the ease of crossing between states caused most states to adopt their own versions of the First Amendment.
What is driving greater political tolerance of diverse cultures and religious beliefs?
1. Ignorance. Lots of Americans have trouble conceiving just how ordinary religious bigotry is in other nations.
2. Greed. If I own an enterprise that can make use of labor that I can get more cheaply from out the country, access to that labor (immigrants) improves my bottom line. That may not be good for America, all some care about is money.
3. Welfare state politics. It is easy to buy the votes of poorly educated immigrants with goodies furnished by the taxpayer.
1. Ignorance…. not sure I fully grasp what you mean here, Tom.
2. Greed. if the country ever gets to a point of enforcing the existing laws prohibiting the hiring of illegals by businesses here this will become even less important. This is one of the Right’s big reasons for the wall.. that somehow illegals and the alleged legal immigration from Third World countries is taking jobs away from Americans. No.. the government stats don’t prove that at all.. and it’s the old idea that they up until now the illegals have been doing the jobs no Americans want to do. While that may be true it doesn’t mean I condone hiring illegals. Honestly, immigration has demonstrated a generally far more motivated success rate in pushing for personal achievement by the second generation than in our own domesticated population.
3. Welfare state politics. See #2 above… first generation perhaps.. when they arrive with their family… but their kids will do better than our own kids. The welfare roles are not really burgeoning to be any predictable political driving force. The trend is that the average immigrant doesn’t want to come here to suck up the hind teet of welfare America. Check our ghettos for that happening.
Good discussion, Tom.
Oh.. informative article on deism, btw.
@Doug
What is the reference to ignorance about? Freedom of religion is still an unusual concept. What is our normal human reaction when some disagrees with us about something we think important? We take offense. Yet what does the Bible teach us about people who become Christians? It says we each must make a personal choice. No one can force another person to become a follower of Christ.
The Bible also makes it clear that we belong to God, not each other or some important man or woman. Therefore, we can try to persuade others to become Christians; we can do our best to set an example of what it means to be a Christian, but we cannot force someone else give their heart to Jesus. We don’t even have the right to try.
Look at almost any other religious group, and you will find bigotry is commonplace. Because Mohammad spread Islam by force of arms, Islam poses a special problem. Any nation where Islam is the predominant religion will be rife with religious bigotry.
As the influence of Christianity fades in the United States, we are seeing a return to religious bigotry. However, the secularists who are guilty of this don’t think of their beliefs as religious, just reasoned and logical. Moreover, they think it is hateful to disagree with them. Hence we have started to referring to crimes against specially protected classes as hate crimes. Yet to effectively use the power of government to promulgate and establish secularist beliefs as our nation’s national religion still violates the First Amendment. For example, even if one concedes (for the sake of argument) that abortion is a right, why should the Federal Government be paying for abortions? Is that because there is some kind of right to health care? Where is that in the Constitution?
We spend huge sums on health, education, and welfare programs, and what is the net result? We are not any better off. Instead, scheming politicians have diverted huge resources into programs full of fraud, waste, and abuse. Nevertheless, the believers in such schemes are happy because these programs allow them to use the government to impose their beliefs on other people.
What about greed?
” No.. the government stats don’t prove that at all.. and it’s the old idea that they up until now the illegals have been doing the jobs no Americans want to do.” I love the phrase: “the jobs no Americans want to do.” Why don’t Americans want those jobs? If you had the choice between going on welfare or working for the same pay as an illegal immigrant, what would you do?
One of the problems with slavery (Illegal immigration is the modern form of slavery.) is that it makes manual labor less attractive. Alexis De Tocqueville observed this in his book, DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA (See => https://citizentom.com/2010/01/03/a-gap-too-wide-and-too-deep-to-bridge/).
Well, much of what you say here, Tom, are your sincere beliefs and I’ll not dispute that. But I don’t share your idea that Christianity is fading… and somehow there’s this impending battle with Islam. Quite honestly I see a lot of this perception as being linked to birth rates. The Third World countries, largely Muslim, are historic for procreating like rabbits versus democratic countries. Central and South America are becoming more Catholic, hence Christian. But I am purely speculating.
Thanks for clarifying your previous remarks.
Chuq.. I agree about being forced to provide a specific greeting. Carry that forward and there are many in this country who wouldn’t mind a Christian theocracy.. and state caliphates.
I must have missed Mr Trump’s Christmas speech. The only thing on the news here (other than the attack in Egypt) is Brexit. It has managed to knock the US president off of the schedules again.
Best wishes, Pete.
We are in agreement!
I fully and whole heartedly support Operation Restore Christmas 2017.
Squee!!! 😀
hehehe. 🙂
In these times if you say “Merry Christmas” to the wrong person at the wrong time you might be accused of sexual harassment and find yourself up to your stocking in trouble. If you say it to the wrong ethnicity you might be called a “Blah-Blah Phobe” or worse! Better to stick with “Bah! Humbug!”
Yeah.. you make a point there, John. Tip-toe through the mine field of political correctness.
DEC
14
NET NEUTRALITY IS DEAD!
The FCC just did it! —– They handed control of the heretofore free Internet over into the hands of billion-dollar corporations to exploit as they fee fit!
The optimists are saying that there are still court battles to take place before consumers start feeling the pinch of greedy oligarchical monoliths and that we should not yet “Give up the fight.”
I do not have much confidence in “Optimists” unless the “Optimists” have their hands on billions of dollars that will be needed to win the court battles to keep the Internet free for all of us.
But before all this begins let me make something perfectly clear:
If I find out that this is something President Trump approves of, promotes, pushes, supports or will give his backing to — and if it negatively impacts me as a user of the Internet you can bet your bottom dollar that I will no longer support him or his agenda in any way, shape, manner or form other than that which I am legally obligated to do as an American Citizen.